Hosts Warren Woodward and Xander Agosta, alongside special guest Mike Schmid, VP of Growth at Backbone, delve into the 2023 Upptic Games Growth Awards. This episode breaks down the highlights from multiple award categories, starting with the “Narrative of the Year.”
Here, the trio explores the creative potential of AI in game-building, economic uncertainty, and the shift toward sustainability in gaming experiences – emphasizing the importance of customer experience and retention.
Moving on to the “Mobile Game of the Year” category, Mike shares his thoughts on games like GTA Vice City (Netflix Edition) and Monopoly Go – with Xander touching on the latter game’s slot mechanics. Xander also joins Warren in declaring a certain Blizzard title as “Mobile Game of the Year” as well.
The discussion heats up as everyone shares their picks for “Marketing Trend of the Year” – exploring generative AI, creator content, and the revival of old IPs, while shedding light on how these are shaping the games and marketing industries.
For “Underdog of the Year” we take a dive into Epic Games’ journey through both the games industry and legal battles, before deciding which game wins “Overall Game of the Year” – spoiler alert, one of them is an unexpected fishing game.
Click “play” now for a deep dive into the innovative trends and standout games that shaped 2023’s games and marketing spaces.
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Full Transcript
Please note that this transcript is AI generated and may be prone to errors.
00:00:00:01 – 00:00:05:11
Mike
Just doing cold opens and just you should trick people and not let them know that you’re doing it too and just have them come on.
00:00:05:11 – 00:00:08:11
Warren
I made my first Americano on my machine today.
00:00:08:15 – 00:00:12:02
Mike
Do you want to talk about coffee for 45 minutes? I can just rant.
00:00:12:02 – 00:00:20:18
Warren
And I was like, aghast at myself. I was like, how ever done my whole life, like, liking coffee so much, but never entertaining the fact of making good coffee.
00:00:20:20 – 00:00:26:18
Mike
If you nerd out on things, I mean, some photography and coffee are two examples that go hand right.
00:00:26:18 – 00:00:30:04
Warren
And things that really pretentious people like.
00:00:30:06 – 00:00:31:05
Mike
Hipster bullshit for.
00:00:31:05 – 00:00:35:05
Xander
Sure. My new pretentious hobby is over making terrariums and I think I would do an aquarium.
00:00:35:08 – 00:00:35:22
Warren
really?
00:00:36:00 – 00:00:37:02
Mike
Yeah. That’s pretty awesome.
00:00:37:02 – 00:00:38:05
Warren
You have one you can show off.
00:00:38:06 – 00:00:40:21
Xander
Here’s a tree that I just did know.
00:00:40:23 – 00:00:41:18
Warren
Very nice.
00:00:41:18 – 00:00:51:00
Warren
That’s nice.
00:00:51:02 – 00:01:08:11
Xander
Welcome to the game’s growth. Update, your weekly trends, insight and analysis of the Games growth industry research and brought to you by uptick. Learn how our teams and technology drive millions of players. The world’s best games at up tick AECOM. Welcome welcome said it for a end of the year year review recap episode. We have a great guest with us today.
00:01:08:12 – 00:01:10:15
Xander
Warren you want to introduce the team up.
00:01:10:17 – 00:01:28:02
Warren
Yeah it’s an awards show because the people demanded the uptake of our own awards show. So we’re going to have the game’s growth awards and we brought in one of our favorite personalities as humans today. Mr. Mike Schmidt. Last time we checked in with Mike, he was working at rec room. But Mike, you are doing something different these days.
00:01:28:02 – 00:01:30:11
Warren
Why don’t you catch us up? What do you been up to lately?
00:01:30:12 – 00:01:46:09
Mike
I am. I am now over at Backbone, which is a controller company you may have heard of. Go to playback, Buncombe, if you want to see what it’s all about. It’s a really cool platform and mobile controller for your phone that is kind of exploding and taking off. And it’s a really exciting time to be at a place like this.
00:01:46:09 – 00:01:53:17
Mike
And it’s my first time doing hardware of this sort, so it’s also a learning experience for me. It’s been really fascinating.
00:01:53:19 – 00:01:58:21
Xander
The most important thing I found out about Backbone is they’re selling it at Costco, which means that it’s real management.
00:01:58:23 – 00:02:15:23
Mike
man, I’ll send you a video we were joking about, like, who could generate the most sales? I was just like a salesperson at a kiosk in the mall or whatever. And I sent a video where I was just dropping those little, like, cards you get in Costco, the backbone cards. I like ten of them. I just bring them into random people’s carts right?
00:02:16:01 – 00:02:17:03
Warren
I just had amazing.
00:02:17:03 – 00:02:19:20
Mike
You do that to anyone, but it looked pretty real spun.
00:02:19:22 – 00:02:22:17
Warren
Awesome. Well, let’s get to the awards show. Where should we start?
00:02:22:19 – 00:02:42:10
Xander
Yeah. Awesome. So we have a bunch of award categories. We call this the Optics objective award awards. But to quickly review what they’re going to be number one narratives, our story of the year. Number two, mobile game of the year. Number three, market trend of the year. Number four, gaming platform of the year. Number five, underdog of the year and number six game of the year overall.
00:02:42:12 – 00:02:51:13
Xander
So let’s just jump right into it first up, narrative slash story of the year. What do you first, Warren? Warren, what is the most overall story of the year and why is it.
00:02:51:15 – 00:03:13:23
Warren
Yeah, I’m stealing the really lazy one made. Mine was just eating everything. Every new startup being based, every existing company overnight becoming an AA company, just the range of things calling themselves A.I.. But yeah, that was the unavoidable narrative this year. And yes, in our sector of, you know, that intersection of game and marketing, but for all of tech overall, I think it’s pretty undeniable.
00:03:13:23 – 00:03:26:03
Warren
And also just some really embarrassing things being called AI in the games marketing space, things like every ad network was all of a sudden a company and anything that had like a modest algorithm that was mine.
00:03:26:05 – 00:03:31:22
Mike
I think that’s it new. That’s no new, though, Like the calling things A.I. that Iron A.I. has been around for a while.
00:03:31:22 – 00:03:33:22
Warren
But it went into overdrive this year and.
00:03:33:22 – 00:03:35:16
Xander
What used to be machine learning. Okay. And now it’s.
00:03:35:18 – 00:03:36:06
Warren
That’s true.
00:03:36:07 – 00:03:40:19
Xander
Yeah. How about you make what do you got as your narrative of the year?
00:03:40:21 – 00:04:07:02
Mike
You know, you really stole the obvious one. I would go like probably a bit deeper and I mean I would say generative. AI Right. Like that’s what you’re really getting at. And I think it’s actually like to dive just like one little bit deeper into the ways I didn’t suspect it would work. Like my friends at work in insurance are using it to send emails and stuff and like the non-game sector, non-tech sector, even like really leveraging AI to improve their workflow has been fascinating to watch from afar.
00:04:07:04 – 00:04:13:06
Mike
So I think it’s like a valid Yeah. Story of the are not just hype. I don’t want to compare it to years past with Web three or anything like that one, but.
00:04:13:06 – 00:04:18:18
Warren
If that’s yours to make, like what do you think was the biggest direct impact to games as a sector.
00:04:18:20 – 00:04:43:18
Mike
For me, the man you mentioned, I was at record and we were doing some really interesting things with generative AI and UGC and like trying to help creators build things using these tools. And I think that’s what’s going to explode in the next 2 to 3 years of that, and that’s where it’s going to get really interesting, where to build a game or to kind of make these experiences, you’re going to leverage those tools so people that are creative at heart may not have the technical savvy are going to be able to unlock the potential.
00:04:43:20 – 00:04:52:18
Warren
Yeah, that’s a really exciting aspect, that lowering of the barrier of entry is like who can make a game like the amount of resources you need. I think that’s one of the really positive things that this area will have.
00:04:52:19 – 00:05:06:03
Xander
Yeah, I’ve talked about this I think a bit later because there has been a couple of different topics, but like for me the most amazing use, I use it for a bunch of stuff, but I’m a terrible engineer and I was doing a side project was coding and the thing that was most useful was I can be like, What’s wrong with my code?
00:05:06:03 – 00:05:18:00
Xander
And I’ll tell you the answer. It’s like kids are trying to code, you idiot. And I was like, that’s like really, really useful. And the next step is that is like, you don’t even need a code. It’s like, I want this, here it is. So I know it’s going to be interesting. Use cases continue to develop. All right, so I’ll do mine.
00:05:18:00 – 00:05:20:04
Xander
You guys want to guess what it is?
00:05:20:06 – 00:05:21:05
Warren
Please. I.
00:05:21:10 – 00:05:26:10
Xander
I mean, in the world. Yeah, because I knew this. I had a back.
00:05:26:12 – 00:05:27:18
Warren
Okay. All right.
00:05:27:20 – 00:05:55:22
Xander
The runner up is the 100% chance of recession narrative that came. yeah. You know, all through in the last year, beginning the year, This is arguably a more important business story than I. In 2023, we had a year of rising interest rates, inflation, a bunch of tumult in the industry. And a lot of these companies, like the geniuses we work with, had the right size of business consolidate and it really, really had a major impact on the Games ecosystem and the tech ecosystem and all the ancillary services like Optic that, you know, rely on these growth companies.
00:05:55:22 – 00:06:10:10
Xander
And so with the Fed is coming out now and everyone’s saying, it’s done, we beat a soft landing, I think I might be a little premature. We’ll see how this goes in the next six months. But I think there’s probably, other than I, the most important impactful narrative of 2023. Any thoughts?
00:06:10:12 – 00:06:12:16
Mike
I have no thoughts about that.
00:06:12:18 – 00:06:13:11
Warren
But I.
00:06:13:13 – 00:06:18:08
Mike
I that’s fair. I wanted to play one more thing, too, that I thought of while you’re going through that spiel.
00:06:18:10 – 00:06:36:08
Warren
Let me let me give a little thoughts. I mean, on this, I like to me like the biggest impact to the game industry of this narrative was we’re seeing the down funnel of the massive layoffs that like so many different companies hired. And there was the pulling of a lot of investment to like a lot of teams I know that were like in the midst of closing around, had that rug pulled from them.
00:06:36:10 – 00:06:50:22
Warren
So I think we’re going to see it now that at a surface level, the economy is, you know, at least valuations are back to a lot of stocks are at an all time high right now. But what I think we’re going to see next year is kind of like what I expect to see with the writers strike happening last year for the movie and TV sector.
00:06:51:03 – 00:07:09:06
Warren
I think we’re going to see this year for gaming maybe a slower pace of game launches with so many projects that were in development that were canceled last year, or startups that didn’t make it to ship their product. So I think that’s going to be one noticeable impact next year of that recession narrative this year and the year before.
00:07:09:08 – 00:07:15:03
Xander
Yeah, my question is like, are we going to notice? Because just there’s so many developers developing so many games across the world.
00:07:15:05 – 00:07:40:06
Mike
I had one more other thing I was thinking of outside of what we’ve discussed, but customer experience and customer support has taken kind of a different spin. In the last year. I’ve seen some companies hiring like a chief customer officer, like VP of customer experience, and kind of really putting executive power behind that part of their organization. I think that goes to like companies taking a deeper look at what retention, long term retention looks like in customer relationship looks like, which is great.
00:07:40:06 – 00:08:00:09
Mike
And I come from a customer support background and I’m like a huge proponent of that and like, really think hard about how, you know, backbone, for instance, thinks about the long term customer experience and keeping people engaged and doing what’s right by them if they’re having an issue and things like that. So that’s cool to see. And I think that that will pay off for the companies that are investing in it.
00:08:00:11 – 00:08:21:17
Warren
That’s a good one. And if I want to really stretch, I can connect that to the economic narrative. So I think with a lot less free money and less M&A activity, it’s forced businesses to turn it into more sustainable entities. And when people are looking just quarter to quarter or for a quick acquisition customer retention and customer support is one of those things that often gets to the wayside.
00:08:21:21 – 00:08:32:05
Warren
Yeah, if you’re trying to run a sustainable business, we all know it’s much more cost efficient to keep and retain an existing customer than acquire a new one. So it makes a lot of sense that these narratives would overlap.
00:08:32:07 – 00:08:36:08
Mike
I don’t know if you guys think about acquisition a lot, but like it’s pretty hard to do that.
00:08:36:10 – 00:08:37:06
Warren
Not at all.
00:08:37:08 – 00:08:54:19
Xander
My first job in the tech industry was a company called Five Star Loyalty Program for Small Businesses. The one metric we used to push was it is six times more effective per dollar to retain a customer than to acquire a new one. And so it makes sense, right? And it’s just, I think to the point you were saying, in the world of free money, if you just kind of crank up the acquisition and not worry about that and funnel.
00:08:54:21 – 00:08:55:20
Warren
Yeah.
00:08:55:22 – 00:09:01:19
Xander
Cool. So that’s our narrative of the year. Next up, mobile Game of the year. Let’s go to you first make what’s your mobile game the year I heard you.
00:09:02:00 – 00:09:22:11
Mike
my gosh it’s hard not to pick monopoly go I think that what they’ve done is tremendous again easy answer and I think if this was like an objective category of like who exploded this year and did the most with, you know, a new game, it would be them for sure. I would also say Super Late Edition GTA v City Netflix edition.
00:09:22:13 – 00:09:23:21
Warren
I think like what.
00:09:23:21 – 00:09:44:06
Mike
GTA is done in coming back and like honestly parlaying that like incredible YouTube presence into excitement around the rerelease of the mobile titles was really interesting. I didn’t see that on my list for this year. So I add that and then like some guys also has had an incredible year and again, the scope of you won’t give them too much longer.
00:09:44:06 – 00:09:52:04
Mike
But then I, I’m playing a lot of retro ball and retro ball continues to really keep me engaged long term. That game is incredible.
00:09:52:09 – 00:10:03:16
Warren
We haven’t had a lot of in-depth discussion and I think part of that is just the gap of I have not spent time with Monopoly Go. I would love my take on just sort of what is the magic like, why did that title catch fire so much?
00:10:03:18 – 00:10:22:04
Mike
yeah. I mean, I’m certainly not going to break down the economics inside the game and like what it’s doing. That’s pretty genius. That is not my forte. But like, it’s clear that it is doing some incredible things with the economy in the game. I would say from a marketing standpoint, I was just as shocked as everybody that that IP had this much life in it and could really reduce the cost of acquisition.
00:10:22:04 – 00:10:41:22
Mike
And it was such a globally recognized and available IP. So really like interesting, especially like I had some insight watching it when I was still at Apple in development and like, yeah, saw what it was doing and I would say like expectations were probably pretty mid on it. I got, I don’t know how else to put it, like nobody is expecting us to do this.
00:10:41:22 – 00:10:52:17
Mike
I think we all thought like I was in strong company behind it a lot of thought being put into the economy and what they’re doing and like then it comes out and it just completely explodes and takes everybody by surprise with how much it could do.
00:10:52:17 – 00:11:07:07
Warren
So it sounds like maybe you’ve heard of the success formula is, you know, there’s so many games that are targeting the same players and games that really expand the market and get those people that don’t consider themselves to be gamers is like, I’m not a gamer. yeah, of course I play Monopoly like, but I’m not a gamer.
00:11:07:13 – 00:11:22:12
Xander
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing, I mean, iconic brand and the something that’s going to keep coming up like GTA is an example iconic brand that just like maintains through generations. The number two is the core of that game’s a slot machine. Yeah it’s it’s.
00:11:22:14 – 00:11:23:01
Warren
Obviously.
00:11:23:02 – 00:11:37:01
Xander
Absurd that like there’s something about the slot machine just like Trixie human brain just got one more quick. Yeah and see I played it I mean impressive I don’t have game I play but I mean, you cannot argue with the numbers and they’re just monstrous.
00:11:37:03 – 00:11:39:11
Warren
Zander What was your mobile game of the year?
00:11:39:12 – 00:11:56:05
Xander
So I sort of cheated here. I have two. But number one, I think there may be some reasons eBay is here, but Warcraft rumble super solid game on many levels is basically like a clash royale like by Blizzard Entertainment, which heavily incorporates PVP elements. And I think it’s great that Wizard after 12 years is finally product mobile. I mean, they really they did it guys.
00:11:56:05 – 00:12:09:18
Xander
It only took them, you know, ten years longer than everyone else. So I enjoy this game. It’s fine. People say, it’s like it’s new and innovative. It’s not really innovative. It’s sort of the blizzard of like, let’s do 25% better. And then like, you know, really live off the shit out of it. And so it’s pretty early.
00:12:09:18 – 00:12:24:09
Xander
We’ll see how long kill is, but it’s a very, very solid and very, very fun game. And then this is very much cheating. But I did a runner up. The number one game that I played most of the year was Marvel’s Now again, Exposed People. These are the guys who would have developed. That was a game if they were still a blizzard, but incredible game.
00:12:24:09 – 00:12:33:15
Xander
Tons of speed, depth, a lot of live ops, really, really solid game. Overall. I stopped playing it, but I played it for it and I might have spent way too much money on it. So those are the games of the year for me.
00:12:33:19 – 00:12:54:15
Warren
Yeah, I actually picked Warcraft Rumble as well. I don’t think was the most successful game of the year, but it’s the one that I spent the most time with. But then my thoughts were similar. Like I don’t see anything super innovative there. It’s more of like the Apple model of like, let’s just take something model that works and like refined the hell out of it, innovate around the edges, really polish it, provide a really good experience.
00:12:54:15 – 00:13:13:17
Warren
But I was really bummed on it when I first heard playing it. I think you were too, in our conversations because it just felt like a game straight out of like 2016 initially. And I have a feeling that like there was an era I was working at Nexon at the time where, you know, we get all these pitches for games to publish and all of them were just riffs off Clash Real because that’s what was hot right then.
00:13:13:19 – 00:13:23:15
Warren
And this feels like something that started development in that era that just took forever to come out and is finally out. But there’s enough of that blizzard polish and magic in it that it actually works.
00:13:23:17 – 00:13:31:14
Xander
So the one crazy thing is it’s still so fricking slow. I don’t understand how game is that’s area just like the load times are, you know.
00:13:31:14 – 00:13:32:05
Mike
The actual getting.
00:13:32:06 – 00:13:40:02
Xander
Into it, it’s like it’s amazing. I mean I think again, talking to the power of the brand, I don’t think it would do as well if it didn’t have the brand just because of our time.
00:13:40:04 – 00:13:56:15
Mike
yeah. We actually spent a lot of time at a few companies about that. We spent a lot of time discussing like what players will put up with and there’s like certain apps where they my old boss used to say that people would like crawl over hot coals to get to it. Like, it doesn’t matter what the experience is because the brand is so powerful.
00:13:56:15 – 00:14:00:11
Mike
If you look at like most things on Nintendo Switch for Sense.
00:14:00:12 – 00:14:01:05
Warren
Like.
00:14:01:07 – 00:14:15:06
Mike
The experience is not what you’d consider like a, you know, 2023 games experience to friend somebody or to do something that would feel intuitive and maybe a mobile title from this era, but people put up with it and deal with it because the IP is so incredible.
00:14:15:08 – 00:14:18:16
Xander
Any other thoughts about working from home more? And before we move onto the next.
00:14:18:18 – 00:14:20:02
Warren
Trend, let’s keep it moving.
00:14:20:04 – 00:14:33:20
Xander
Let’s keep moving. All right. So next one is marking end of the year. And I’m going to go first on this one. And it’s something we kind of already talked about. So my region of the year is turning air into actual marketing. And so it’s like I think this is all.
00:14:33:20 – 00:14:34:18
Warren
Before illustration was.
00:14:34:22 – 00:14:52:15
Xander
Super played out. But I think the thing that it’s like we’ve actually an object which my team has found a way to actually use generative AI in a way that’s really, really effective. So one of the things that we do is we pretty often acquire content and this is like specifically focused around SEO, but it also is heavily focused on just having people find us and making us into narrative.
00:14:52:17 – 00:15:12:20
Xander
And so what we do is we create like multiple thousand plus word blog articles a month. And what we’ve done is we basically outsource the middle part of the process to generally we write the outline ourselves. We have a German that generates huge swaths of the content and we do a very, very head edit pass, and this is able to like quadruple our throughput for blog content.
00:15:13:01 – 00:15:28:21
Xander
And so this is one example that we’ve done internally that I think is really, really it saved us a bunch of money and made us capabilities of a can do. But also our creative team is find ways to do this, which if you want to go listen to the episode with Josh like two weeks ago we talked about this more, but that’s my very unoriginal but actually actionable thing we’ve done around general area.
00:15:28:23 – 00:15:31:18
Xander
So that’s where you’ve got my answer. I think we.
00:15:31:20 – 00:15:32:02
Warren
Let’s.
00:15:32:02 – 00:15:35:16
Xander
Turn to Warren. You want to go next. What is the marketing term of the year for you?
00:15:35:18 – 00:15:55:02
Warren
My name is Broad, but it was pretty clear to me I just put creator content and I think this manifests in a number of ways. The first is just the idea of influencer marketing I think has matured in a number of healthy ways. The two ways it’s really matured and sort of become more effective is tactics to like measure the efficacy of working with creators.
00:15:55:07 – 00:16:16:10
Warren
And also not everyone. Just like, okay, we need to work with Logan. Paul Like understanding the same way when we think about ad targeting, what is the CPM, what is the cost you’re paying for each impression rather than just like how big is the person and companies maturing and learning how to work with content creators that are more niche but like super relevant in their space and then measuring the outcomes for that.
00:16:16:10 – 00:16:37:17
Warren
So it’s still maturing, say, minutes. So that was the first. And then just also in the traditional user acquisition performance marketing side, we’re just seeing UGC user generated content just dominating most of the social channels like AIG, SNAP Meta, etc. and Mike, they’re seeing a lot of backbone ads to working with you guys. Like it seems like UGC and creator focused content is also a big thing that Backbone believes in as well.
00:16:37:17 – 00:16:42:07
Warren
But like, would you agree with that take on? Yeah, I think the same kind of trends with greater content for sure.
00:16:42:07 – 00:17:00:01
Mike
And I think you have to be ready to adapt it. Like that’s not going to be the case probably next year. And it’s like these things come in weird waves and you ride them and squeeze kind of all the value from them, and then somebody finds the next thing that has the better efficacy and like we’ll drive that and then that becomes So I think if you’re like flexible and not getting too comfortable.
00:17:00:01 – 00:17:09:03
Mike
Matt I do agree that it’s working right now, but might not work for a long time, right? I think there are some things this complete into mind if you’re done because this is brilliant. Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:09:03 – 00:17:10:04
Warren
Well, what was your turn then?
00:17:10:04 – 00:17:35:19
Mike
I talk now. Can I speak your mind? I think there are certain things that do work endlessly, like celebrity endorsements and things like that, you know, that kind of can feel sometimes like this, similar to those trends, but adapt in small ways. But overall are a good strategy to help reduce costs around marketing. So like, I wasn’t going to say celebrity, I’m actually going to say reviving old IP or has been like the story of the year for me.
00:17:35:19 – 00:18:08:09
Mike
Like if you look at what Mattel and Hasbro and Lego now have done, like not that any of those were like old and dead, but they were still very alive and relevant in their own world. I think they’ve now had a new life in a new space. And that’s been really interesting. I mean, to see what Mattel has done with Barbie and what they’ll probably be able to do with their other IP next year shows that there is like a winning strategy around that and that these like very large and maybe older brands have a new life.
00:18:08:15 – 00:18:20:06
Mike
Yeah, like Lego too. Like just watching like Lego for anything like that. But everybody’s minds that came out of nowhere. And I think a lot of people are sleeping on it didn’t realize that that was a possibility with that brand.
00:18:20:08 – 00:18:37:16
Warren
That’s a good one on first impression. Like that doesn’t strike me as a marketing trend. But like if I reflect on it for 5 seconds, it absolutely makes sense. You know, you take the same script or the same product, but you pair it with a brand that has a lot of nostalgia and kind of dormant demand. And it can be a powerful combination.
00:18:37:18 – 00:18:42:22
Mike
I think like a lot of these like wrap up lists, maybe it’s also just like a lot of these stories for the end of year trends.
00:18:42:22 – 00:18:44:23
Warren
When other people do wrap up lists. Yeah.
00:18:44:23 – 00:19:07:01
Mike
So yeah, this was like our thing. No, no, no, no. So this is like a very widely used thing. I know if you knew that we’re going to do a gift guide after this, I can talk about that as well. But I think people don’t think about these things in the same way because on a physical item or a toy, like if you think of like Toy of the Year, like, I mean you’d be looking at Barbie Monopoly and Lego, but not because of their retail sales, right?
00:19:07:03 – 00:19:12:11
Mike
It’s because of what they’ve done digitally. That’s been incredible. Sadly, a heartache. But that’s.
00:19:12:11 – 00:19:20:03
Xander
No, it’s a good one. I mean, we kind of like it’s a theme that’s almost more of a theme that it’s like particularly the keep coming up is like, yeah, yeah. Actually I talk about and brand like the power.
00:19:20:03 – 00:19:24:09
Mike
I mean, Barbie and I seems unstoppable, so very keen to see that happen.
00:19:24:11 – 00:19:31:00
Xander
I want like fully automated Barbie guys that walk around in the physical 3D space, but they also have to have a digital entity to attach.
00:19:31:02 – 00:19:33:11
Mike
You ask me.
00:19:33:12 – 00:19:39:12
Xander
Okay, next up, we have gaming platform of the year. Makes you wanna go first in this one backbone.
00:19:39:12 – 00:20:01:01
Mike
So backbone I think like that. I mean, I’m going to give a really shitty answer on this just to be totally transparent. Like, I think that like user choices, the platform of the year and people now are getting to the point where they’re like, they want flexibility, they want their thing anywhere. I think there’s a few games that have been really good at doing this and a few games that are like working towards getting to that story.
00:20:01:01 – 00:20:16:03
Mike
So like we mentioned some guys earlier that’s now on Xbox, So I think it’s like interesting to watch the thing we’ve seen from the past happen in reverse where it’s like we’ve seen these console games trying to get to mobile and now you have these mobile games that are so massive that they’re like, well, we should also be on console.
00:20:16:03 – 00:20:30:06
Mike
That seems like an appropriate place for us to exist to. So and yeah, and I think not to get cheesy about it, but like I really did join back on because I do believe in that mission to like make things available everywhere and allow users to kind of choose the context in which they want to play their favorite games.
00:20:30:07 – 00:20:39:12
Warren
There’s a few of our team members that have backbones and universally positive praise that have gotten on them from the team members. It is it is a really good products. I think it was world.
00:20:39:12 – 00:20:40:06
Mike
Peace.
00:20:40:08 – 00:20:42:06
Warren
And I.
00:20:42:08 – 00:21:03:04
Warren
Do think your real answer was a great one, Mike, which is I guess your platform is multi-platform, right? Yeah, because that’s been a definitely a theme that we’ve been talking about more and more is it’s negligence to not develop products with cross-platform in mind. The gap in compute and the experiences you’re able to have from console to mobile to PC is getting narrower and narrower.
00:21:03:06 – 00:21:15:08
Warren
And I think that’s just going to continue. Like we think of things like the immortal Aldersgate, I’ve played on at least like three different platforms so far this year. But yeah, I think that’s a very clear trend. What use ender? What was your platform?
00:21:15:10 – 00:21:38:12
Xander
Yeah, my platform of the year, it’s very, very navel gazing and it’s really more just my platform of the year than it is the games industry platform of the year. And that’s PC gaming. I think PC gaming is like this behemoth which just is sticking around and is going nowhere any time soon. I mean mobile has very long and various and in and for the first time ever has stumbled a little bit and so wall is still by far the largest segment and like you’re really delusional if you don’t really understand that.
00:21:38:12 – 00:21:54:21
Xander
I think it’s been a great game for PC gaming overall. There’s great releases like, I mean, Booker’s game, it was like a PC first experience. It clearly, I think spoiler alert that got a lot of awards argue with him this year. I think the culture was I guess around PC games. It’s like the super nerd version of it, but it’s like that’s where I’ve been spending most of my time.
00:21:55:03 – 00:22:18:19
Xander
I basically only play paradox games like Victoria three, Crusader Kings three, which is just like the ultra deep hole. So while I don’t think this is necessarily indicative of what is overall the most powerful for business, I think it is just the juggernaut that keeps on going over and over again. So very navel gazing answer, not super, super forward looking or thought provoking, but that’s my answer for what I think is nice.
00:22:18:19 – 00:22:21:21
Warren
Use PC gaming. It.
00:22:21:23 – 00:22:42:14
Warren
I do think that if you look at where the excitement was this year, the most innovative titles, they were all at the least like the book was PC First. I feel like even though we talked about our mobile picks for the year is pretty friggin stagnant year for mobile gaming as far as indoor invasion, dare you? Well, that’s why you want to play your PC and console games on your mobile device.
00:22:42:14 – 00:23:08:06
Warren
My server only there were some hardware for that. But yeah that’s that’s a good take. Mine was Xbox actually. I feel like Xbox is starting to have so many unfair advantages from other consoles that it’s going to be harder to compete with. Gamecock just becomes a more and more compelling product over time. And the acquisition of Activision Blizzard, I think that’s going to mean some very powerful things for exclusive content over time.
00:23:08:11 – 00:23:19:14
Warren
But yeah, I just find myself personally spending more and more time gaming on my Xbox and just anything from PC is going to port to Xbox pretty cleanly as well too. So I just see them getting more and more edge in the console. Worse.
00:23:19:16 – 00:23:26:17
Mike
I would have loved if you’d picked them for your underdog. You’re like, Really? This means Microsoft guys are figuring it out. They’re getting there.
00:23:26:18 – 00:23:47:07
Xander
I think it’s a comparable with navel gazing like Warren plays on Xbox. And so therefore it’s his radar for the year. But that being said, I think it’s interesting what you described. We just like the game pass thing is like impossible to ignore over time, like the fact that you be $20 or but can windows that everyday and get access huge catalog it’s going to like you to value for gaming the same way that Netflix did for the streaming entertainment ecosystem.
00:23:47:11 – 00:23:48:05
Xander
And so not only.
00:23:48:05 – 00:23:51:18
Warren
That, it captures more revenue as well too. I think in the long term.
00:23:51:23 – 00:24:02:21
Xander
I don’t know for Microsoft it does, but not for the individual game developers. I think it’s actually net negative for the ecosystem overall over the long term, but it’s really not good for Microsoft. So make your take there.
00:24:03:03 – 00:24:15:05
Mike
I just really hope, like Warren’s wife is right off screen and he’s just dropping these hints for his Christmas presents. It’s like a year subscription to Xbox Game Pass. It would be really cool for my Xbox. I think that wins platform of the year.
00:24:15:07 – 00:24:16:18
Warren
I think.
00:24:16:20 – 00:24:22:12
Xander
All right. All right. Well, let’s go to Underdog of the year. One’s good. You first. Underdog of the year.
00:24:22:14 – 00:24:44:01
Warren
Yeah, mine was technically this came out in 2022, but really blew up this year. It was vampire survivors. So vampire survivors might arguably be the game that I actually spent the most time in. I think it was my game that I played, like during most flights, you know, and is trying to fall asleep at night and just has an amazing underdog story like, you know, basically a one man developer.
00:24:44:01 – 00:25:10:20
Warren
My understanding is they used to work in like slot machine design and you really see that in the gameplay. It’s just the ultimate dopamine experience, just zone out, give me the dopamine and it’s a lot of fun. Like it doesn’t take itself seriously. It was a game that everyone could get behind. And yeah, it’s also just so giving like for spending $2 in to be able to get that amount of content or whatever the prices right now.
00:25:10:22 – 00:25:22:04
Warren
So I think it’s a team that you really wanted to root for a game that we’re all enjoying together and exciting, excited to see kind of come out of nowhere and take over the site. Guys, how about you, Mike? What was your.
00:25:22:06 – 00:25:35:00
Mike
skip me scale. You skipped me. I’m going. I’ve done no preparation for this. If it wasn’t clear, I’m really trying hard to, like, catch up here. And I’m like, Man, were there games this year? Were there like, I’m looking back now that you’re saying it, but Zander was All right.
00:25:35:00 – 00:25:58:11
Xander
Zander All right. So my underdog of the year is the long time punches above their weight class Epic games epic games is, I think, arguably the most prestigious in pure play game company in the world. It has the Epic Games store, The Unreal Engine, Fortnite. You talked about watching Lego Fortnite rocket racing. Fortnite, first of all, basically have the best position to capture the metaverse.
00:25:58:14 – 00:25:59:21
Xander
I’m sort of joking in that regard, but.
00:25:59:21 – 00:26:00:16
Mike
Thanks for having me guys.
00:26:00:16 – 00:26:02:13
Warren
It’s I think.
00:26:02:18 – 00:26:20:11
Xander
Lastly, the bus, interesting thing that happened here, I mean, the metaverse thing I said is a joke. I don’t actually like the facts. Right. But what is obviously true is they have a development engine, they have a store, they have a bunch of different games that are interlocking and or monetize a super, super well. And they just are fresh off victory against Google, which I think is really beneficial for the industry overall.
00:26:20:11 – 00:26:21:19
Xander
And so.
00:26:21:21 – 00:26:24:11
Mike
To talk about that as you’re trying to beat me out.
00:26:24:15 – 00:26:25:01
Xander
He got.
00:26:25:01 – 00:26:25:20
Warren
It.
00:26:25:22 – 00:26:38:07
Warren
Paul Mike, I don’t know. Can you get you have maybe a little interesting history with Epic. I don’t know how much you care to share, but you’re kind of in the public arena in the Apple versus Epic case, right? Yeah. Like, I mean, I’ve never.
00:26:38:13 – 00:26:58:14
Mike
Spoken publicly about that. It’s fine for me to share some of my thoughts on it. It’s interesting now that Epic’s put some points on the board, I think that the way the legal system works, we shouldn’t get to ahead of ourselves with any outcomes here. But I definitely believe in diplomacy with all of our platforms. And it’s not because I’m trying to say it as like part of a larger business that deals with all these platforms and all that.
00:26:58:14 – 00:27:21:05
Mike
But like truly being a former, you know, head of games for Apple and being on the platform side like diplomacy works so much better and gets things moving so much quicker. So look at like in 2018, I think it was like when Apple allowed Xbox and PlayStation controllers to work on their devices, which in retrospect, it’s insane that that wasn’t already a thing at that point.
00:27:21:05 – 00:27:40:07
Mike
Like but now we look at it and we’re like, yeah, of course that is the way that works. That happens through diplomacy and through working together and like trying to really focus on actually the customer experience. So when I talk about the trend of my customer experience and my background originally was like I worked in the Apple store at college, I’m like, customer experience is huge and my customer relationship was huge.
00:27:40:09 – 00:27:57:12
Mike
But Apple, as well as some of the best platforms and companies, really focuses on what a great customer experience looks like and what’s the right thing to do for the users. So when it came to like unlocking that controller support, that was kind of the guiding light behind it. It was like, we have users that want this. There’s a clear reason to do this.
00:27:57:12 – 00:28:30:07
Mike
They’re games that are asking this for this and then it come to what Epic did, which was not diplomatic. There’s not that approach and I think we are where we are because of that. I actually play Fortnite like every day, so it’s kind of weird for me to take this on both sides of this. But like, I think they have an incredible game, an incredible platform, and it bums me out that they had, you know, the largest mobile game in the world and because they were so aggressive with these tactics and kind of comes to their own head about what the right thing to do was, they kind of did what was not great for
00:28:30:07 – 00:28:51:14
Mike
the user. They kind of removed that opportunity for those players. There were plenty of players that only played on that platform and that was their like, key place to connect with their friends in that universe, in that quote. Metaverse And yeah, I hate the metaverse term too. I think it’s bullshit. But like I think the social experience behind that game was, you know, the driving force and what really made it work cross-platform.
00:28:51:14 – 00:29:11:23
Mike
And they removed the biggest platform and that really hurt it. But watching them come back this year with Fortnite OG and kind of revisit it and now have this kind of nostalgia factor for Fortnite was really interesting. Now watching what they’re doing, Lego, which jury’s out whether or not it will be a long term success. But I think it was really fascinating and really a big step in the right direction for them as a UGC platform.
00:29:12:01 – 00:29:15:18
Xander
Yeah, just to do a brief Monday morning quarterbacking, do you think that there’s.
00:29:15:18 – 00:29:20:07
Warren
A limit to the thing that the really clear? Yes, Michelle could actually.
00:29:20:07 – 00:29:23:13
Xander
Have gone to Apple and said, hey, give us a better deal, Like give us a better deal?
00:29:23:13 – 00:29:24:22
Mike
And that’s not how that works. Yeah.
00:29:25:00 – 00:29:27:07
Warren
And how much the policy keep you actually doing that.
00:29:27:10 – 00:29:45:17
Mike
Yeah, but that’s not what I’m saying. Like diplomacy doesn’t mean like, here’s my negotiation point and I’m not going to budge on it. And this is what I want. Like diplomacy with these platforms, too, is a much longer and thoughtful process, like the controller support conversation. Just to go back to that as a proxy for this didn’t come up in 2018.
00:29:45:17 – 00:30:01:12
Mike
It came up in 2014, right? Like 2015, like 2013 and 2017. It’s like there’s a lot of things to take into account when it comes to a platform of that size and the user base of that size. And if you get like four beers in me, I will tell you all sorts of other comments on here.
00:30:01:14 – 00:30:02:11
Warren
Although if you give.
00:30:02:11 – 00:30:11:10
Warren
An anecdote like on on another site, you know, we yeah, we work with a number of web three game teams and like and what is that Web three? It’s the thing that makes the metaverse because.
00:30:11:12 – 00:30:20:00
Mike
That too is when they got all responsive and it like that, everybody’s font got lighter and Arial and Helvetica. So Web three is a step beyond that is what you’re saying.
00:30:20:00 – 00:30:22:04
Warren
That’s where you never ship the actual game.
00:30:22:08 – 00:30:23:18
Mike
Ah, got it, got it, got it.
00:30:23:18 – 00:30:43:19
Warren
But the conversation we have a lot of teams early on is like, well okay, let’s if you’re doing Apple is not going to allow today into Google play as well it’s like you have a choice here you can either stay the course and hope you don’t get in trouble for breaking these policies or we can engage with them and working conjunction with them.
00:30:43:19 – 00:31:00:09
Warren
And usually what we always recommend is like it’s going to be more of a pain in the ass, but like Apple will engage on these things. It’s not like they won’t listen. We’ll have a conversation. It’s going to take a lot longer than game developers probably won’t because it’s obviously one of the biggest companies in the world. They’re not going to change their policies overnight.
00:31:00:11 – 00:31:24:06
Warren
But I have been pleasantly surprised at Apple’s willingness to engage with game developers that don’t currently fit in their boxes and fulfill those policies. And so to your point, Mike, I think, yeah, the way you negotiate with Apple is not to come at their throats like you can’t actually have a productive conversation. Doesn’t mean you’re going to get what you want or this can happen as fast as you want.
00:31:24:08 – 00:31:32:04
Warren
But yeah, Epic took a route here. Whether you think they’re right or wrong, you had very little chance of getting buy in from Apple. I think they’re I think they took or Google.
00:31:32:09 – 00:31:41:18
Mike
Yeah like a few points to touch on their like one the short term thinking of like just get through app review and hope they don’t know this you is not a winning strategy like.
00:31:41:18 – 00:31:46:15
Warren
Yeah like what’s your business model like it’s like if you become a top ten game, like that’s what you’re going to.
00:31:46:16 – 00:32:08:21
Mike
A.L.S. Yeah, and it’s going to happen. And then you’re starting off with like a negative relationship. But you’re right. Like when we did, we didn’t do anything there. I was just a cog in the wheel, buddy. But when Apple decided to implement app tracking transparency, it was pretty thoughtful. Like I disagreed with a lot of things internally and like, I ranted probably too much about the things that I thought mattered the most.
00:32:08:21 – 00:32:24:20
Mike
And there are people there that are taking into account many other factors that were outside of my purview and outside of like what was important to me. And to their credit, they brought in people from the industry and ask them questions and listen thoughtfully. And then they did what they were going to do, but they mean it.
00:32:24:20 – 00:32:27:15
Warren
Right what they wanted. But they did consult with the industry.
00:32:27:15 – 00:32:41:00
Mike
Yeah, they got the information so totally. And yeah, like I had developers that would get me on the phone and be like 30% ra ra ra ra and I’m like, What do you think I’m going to say? You think that they’re like, Yeah, buddy, let me get you a deal here. What do you want? You want 25, like now?
00:32:41:02 – 00:32:44:09
Warren
But overall, I felt like, how do we know that’s a crazy thing?
00:32:44:09 – 00:32:53:10
Xander
Is a Google actually did cut those deal That’s yeah that’s fucking crazy and that’s why they won the for issue is because like he was clear that it was happening on the side I mean yeah.
00:32:53:12 – 00:32:55:09
Mike
I know was exactly like how I just said.
00:32:55:09 – 00:32:56:14
Warren
It.
00:32:56:16 – 00:33:11:12
Xander
Well I think so. For me, my relationship with Apple is your relationship with Epic. We’re like, I fucking hate that. I love my life. I use it every fucking second of every day. And Apple is a company just drives me insane. I refuse to buy the stock because I’m like, No, you’re right. You’re not the.
00:33:11:12 – 00:33:12:10
Mike
Only wish you showed them.
00:33:12:10 – 00:33:15:23
Xander
Then I said to my $3,000 back, but probably got like.
00:33:16:02 – 00:33:17:15
Warren
1500 dollars. Well.
00:33:17:17 – 00:33:18:20
Xander
Anyway, now, Underdog.
00:33:18:20 – 00:33:23:04
Warren
Apple, we love you, Sanders opinions. You never represent the opinions.
00:33:23:06 – 00:33:27:20
Xander
That’s close to leave you know gives growth podcast you don’t get Schmidt do you have something for underdog.
00:33:27:20 – 00:33:28:22
Warren
Of the year.
00:33:29:00 – 00:33:32:20
Mike
for underdog is that we’re we’re so on I don’t even yeah or I definitely would not.
00:33:32:20 – 00:33:36:19
Warren
Choose epic games like the year.
00:33:36:21 – 00:33:55:06
Mike
You know I. I had one and now I’m like I’m totally lost on it but I would say raft I guess if I had to say like a game that was an underdog of the year for me, like I had no expectations about that game at all. And when I got my steam wrap up, I spent outside of rec room, which I usually connected, you know, to my VR via seems.
00:33:55:06 – 00:34:00:06
Mike
So that kind of outweighed everything outside of rec room raft was the most played for me.
00:34:00:07 – 00:34:02:18
Xander
It pushes on me a lot of never actually played it so maybe.
00:34:02:18 – 00:34:20:05
Mike
Yeah it was kind of incredible and is perfect for me. It was like I could spend a little bit of time on that. It was very like easy to bounce in and out. I didn’t get sucked into a story is stupid stories, stupid narrative. Can start like. And then my goal was fun because my son actually played it too, and I probably dropped like probably 10 to 15 hours into it.
00:34:20:07 – 00:34:29:16
Mike
And my son hopped on, who had also started playing at the same time and like I joined his server and his raft looked like a little mansion that was floating. And I was like, What? The fact we’re playing the same game. What are you doing?
00:34:29:18 – 00:34:30:13
Warren
Like.
00:34:30:15 – 00:34:42:13
Mike
He was so far ahead of me and then kind of broke it for me a little bit because it’s kind of like when she’s break the game. But a game is so much fun and so an and so easy to hop into. That was the underdog for me because I had no expectations going into it.
00:34:42:15 – 00:34:46:09
Warren
That’s a good one. No, it’s not even on my radar, really. So I will definitely check that one out.
00:34:46:14 – 00:34:50:01
Mike
Yeah. Great game. After my affiliate link, I’ll send you my affiliate.
00:34:50:03 – 00:34:58:15
Xander
Thiago gives team kickback all right. So the moment that everyone’s waiting for the overall game of the year, go to war in first war in mind.
00:34:58:15 – 00:35:14:20
Warren
So lazy. I mean, I thought about it, but, like, there’s no way to stop all this game three for me personally, but also just for the industry. Like it’s rare that you see all of gaming come forward and embrace and all agree like this is an amazing game. We love the game, we love the team. It consumes me.
00:35:14:20 – 00:35:30:03
Warren
There’s so much about the game to love so many different ways you can play it. The shared experience of us all, going through that game together, this and she was really cool. I don’t know. To me it’s undisputable. It’s also extremely lazy. So I hope that you guys did not pick all this game as well. We’ll give Mike a second to do his homework.
00:35:30:03 – 00:35:31:19
Warren
Last minute here is Ender was your game.
00:35:32:00 – 00:35:47:00
Xander
Yeah, my game is also blue Sky three. I think you know Larian studio. It’s a master class. I’ve been fighting them for a long time. I played there the indie games with Divinity Center and the original Sin to. It’s a funny story. They basically applied for the Baldur’s Gate license 20 years ago and they’re a brand new studio.
00:35:47:00 – 00:36:05:06
Xander
They were told, you know, go get some reference. They went made Divinity original center, then the original Sin two and then really just became the undisputable champs of the indie on a digital medium. And so when they came back solicited for this guy three one and now I think it’s like indisputably one of the richest gameplay experiences in a long time.
00:36:05:06 – 00:36:09:21
Xander
Great tactics, but the choice you can play with a bunch different styles and yeah, it’s a great.
00:36:09:21 – 00:36:11:01
Warren
And confusing.
00:36:11:03 – 00:36:25:16
Xander
For me is you know, also like I think 1.4 team tactical turn based gameplay as opposed to real time gameplay which a lot of RPG have been angry towards. But because I knew you wouldn’t do that, I didn’t have one like this isn’t game of the year, but this is like a cool in the game that I found that I freaking loved.
00:36:25:22 – 00:36:49:00
Xander
And I think that I guarantee you. But you know, it started this game. So the game is called dredge and it’s a fishing in the game about a man who spirals down into vehicles and it’s by this little studio called Black Salt Studios. And it’s an incredible game, 15 hours long, one time place, you know, repeatability, very quaint, cute little graphics, but really, really good use of mechanics matching with esthetic matching with the metaphor, the narrative.
00:36:49:04 – 00:36:52:20
Xander
If you’re into weird little indie games on your PC, check out your edge.
00:36:52:22 – 00:36:56:03
Mike
It got number 13 on The Guardian’s top 20 games lists.
00:36:56:03 – 00:36:56:20
Xander
Did it really?
00:36:56:22 – 00:36:57:08
Mike
Yeah.
00:36:57:14 – 00:37:02:00
Xander
I had never heard anyone else talk about it except for the finance team and it’s fucking awesome. Highly rated.
00:37:02:00 – 00:37:12:04
Mike
Which I may or may not be looking at to try to come up with my take on that. Let’s see. Was Sea of Thieves released in 2010? Now that was 2018, but there was the 2023 edition. Let’s go with that. No.
00:37:12:06 – 00:37:13:08
Warren
But you got Mike, check it out.
00:37:13:12 – 00:37:23:22
Mike
I mean, I haven’t played Zelda yet, so it’s really hard for me to not say. But Mike also wished to celebrate on my favorite games of all time. One, when we worked together, I dressed as our make for Halloween, if you recall.
00:37:24:00 – 00:37:26:03
Warren
I don’t know if I even noticed. Yeah, I.
00:37:26:03 – 00:37:37:18
Warren
Mean, flashlight in my head. You’re like, Is it art? What are you doing? It’s a safe. It’s you. Just like. Like I would wake.
00:37:37:18 – 00:37:50:08
Mike
So I suspect it will be on week two or so, and I’m playing over break. So I’m going to go ahead of time and say that because other than that, the other things I play this year are like Sea of Thieves. And the other games that I listed on mobile.
00:37:50:10 – 00:37:51:17
Warren
I would shout out to bacon.
00:37:51:17 – 00:38:10:20
Mike
I don’t know if you’ve played bacon before, spent a lot of time on bacon this year. Also, not a 2023 title, but I would love to be able to get Bacon Game of the year and also freeware and they have a version of it where you can update the bacon to be vegan bacon if you prefer. It doesn’t actually change the bacon in the game whatsoever, but it just noted that it is vegan bacon.
00:38:10:22 – 00:38:12:13
Warren
Mobile game bacon.
00:38:12:15 – 00:38:21:00
Mike
Yes. This is the Mulligan Bacon. Yes. I’m 95% sure I got an uptick ad in that game yesterday. I was like, I’m pretty sure this isn’t just for ads for.
00:38:21:02 – 00:38:22:00
Warren
Did you convert?
00:38:22:01 – 00:38:23:15
Mike
It was better life. So no, I did not remember.
00:38:23:18 – 00:38:24:00
Xander
It was.
00:38:24:04 – 00:38:24:22
Warren
Not out.
00:38:25:00 – 00:38:28:09
Warren
Yet. You did get an uptick. Not sad like that. Yes.
00:38:28:14 – 00:38:30:00
Mike
Amazing.
00:38:30:02 – 00:38:41:05
Xander
Awesome. Well, so that wraps it for our deranged growth game Awards of the year. Growth. Game growth. Where was the fear? The word in the year 2023. Any final words?
00:38:41:07 – 00:38:51:05
Mike
No, thank you for having me. This was fun. And it’s much more relaxing to be on the side of it and not have to worry about doing any homework or any of this. And I can just try to make silly jokes the whole time. So I appreciate.
00:38:51:05 – 00:38:52:12
Xander
It. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:38:52:12 – 00:39:00:07
Warren
Thanks so much for joining us. No, you’re super busy with backbone, especially Q4, I assume, is like extra crazy. Well, I know it’s crazy for you guys.
00:39:00:09 – 00:39:01:20
Xander
To want to take us out.
00:39:01:22 – 00:39:18:05
Warren
Yeah. Thanks, everyone, for joining us for this experiment. We’ve been experimenting a lot with the podcast format this year, even though everybody else does do award shows. We thought be fun to own. As always, the show is brought to you by our team here. Up to here at Optic. We do all to help games grow, so we do user acquisition creative.
00:39:18:07 – 00:39:36:13
Warren
We make really cool software to streamline these things and write a lot of analysis and insights. So if you are working on a game or a game tangential product, like, say, the backbone controller, one of our other favorite new clients we’re working with, you can reach us at U-P-P-T-I-C.com
00:39:36:15 – 00:39:37:04
Xander
Talk soon.