Google and Epic have their day in court – and it goes differently then some might have expected. With two different rulings regarding Apple and Google’s practices, what does it mean for the industry? In web3 news, the ESRB slaps an Adults Only rating – usually reserved for sexually explicit content or ultraviolence – onto web3 game “Gods Unchained” for its potential to… generate real-world value for players? What does this precedence mean now for the web3 space – and for the ESRB?
In games industry news, E3 has its final bow – and there are many nostalgic feelings and reactions to be had. Meanwhile, Hasbro generates some… less friendly feelings with the news of its latest round of layoffs – and may have a bit of a leadership problem. Certainly, some of its decisions are worth questioning.
Listen now to get the full scoop. Talk soon!
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Full Transcript
Please note that this transcript is AI generated and may be prone to errors.
00:00:00:00 – 00:00:01:20
Warren
Are you caffeinated? Are you ready?
00:00:01:22 – 00:00:06:03
Xander
I’m pretty caffeinated. I would not say I’m ready, but yeah, This Rick and Morty cup.
00:00:06:05 – 00:00:08:04
Warren
Just your layman’s coffee.
00:00:08:04 – 00:00:13:12
Xander
I’m sorry, but I care very little about your opinion. Coffee before Justin were canceled.
00:00:13:14 – 00:00:15:14
Warren
And you just rocking some drip standers or.
00:00:15:18 – 00:00:17:16
Xander
Drip beans, boring old man
00:00:17:16 – 00:00:34:20
Warren
I’m very fancy this week. I’m dual wielding right now, so I’ve got in one hand a nice homemade latte and then I have an extra fancy hop tonic, jasmine green tea. This stuff is worse. Yeah, it’s like beer, dizziness without alcohol in it and like, a green tea flavor.
00:00:34:22 – 00:00:35:11
Xander
More than that.
00:00:35:12 – 00:00:36:16
Warren
We’ve been doing good.
00:00:36:18 – 00:00:38:22
Xander
Chugging beers before our podcast.
00:00:39:00 – 00:00:52:04
Warren
I am a highly optimized podcast machine today. Let’s get into it.
00:00:52:06 – 00:01:03:17
Xander
Welcome to the game’s growth Update. Your weekly trends in, say, an analysis of games growth, industry research and brought to you by up tick. Learn how our team and technology drive millions of players to the world’s best games at optical.
00:01:03:19 – 00:01:26:01
Warren
It is a big news week this week. The news was just falling from the sky this week. So this week what are we going to cover? We have epic winning its antitrust case against Google going on for more than three years. We have gods in chains. Our clients what, three game by immutable x rated as adults only on the epic store and booted from the store.
00:01:26:03 – 00:01:45:05
Warren
We have Hasbro, sadly laying off 1100 employees now over 20% of its workforce for the year. So we’ll get into why. And then, as I think everyone heard this week, we say goodbye again and probably for the last time to E3 conference. So let’s get into it.
00:01:45:07 – 00:02:01:04
Xander
Yeah, before we jump into it, one thing I just wanted to highlight, Optic is currently looking for Beta clients for our platform. We’ve talked about our platform a lot in the past, can do a lot of things to help you grow, especially if you have a mobile game. But if you’re interested in being part of a beta program, please just send us an email, marketing it up to that.
00:02:01:05 – 00:02:22:05
Xander
Come, let’s get into it. Welcome to the game’s growth. Update your weekly Trends insight analysis of the game’s growth industry research and brought to you by up tick. Learn how our team and technology drive millions of players to the world’s best. Keep that up. Tick. Okay, cool. So lots of coverage today. Couple of good stories. We’re winding down the season, so tremors too much and your thoughts whirring before we get started.
00:02:22:07 – 00:02:33:08
Warren
Yeah, sometimes we have to search for stories to cover. We didn’t have to search this week. They were falling out of the sky, several big ones. So excited to dig in this week. Where shall we start?
00:02:33:10 – 00:02:47:18
Xander
Well, I think we’ll start with the figure that is probably most directly impactful to ourselves and to our industry. And I will say that there’s a lot of really, really good analysis out there on this, and we will try our best to look to the standard. But we are not lawyers. So this is maybe are not our strongest suit.
00:02:47:20 – 00:03:07:19
Xander
That being said, we want to cover the fact that the jury has hinted epic a win in the antitrust case against Google, which is huge, huge news for the industry overall. So a few details. Epic won its antitrust lawsuit against Google regarding its App Store policies. The jury ruled that Google was operating in a legal monopoly, and in 2021, a baker had lost a similar antitrust case to Apple.
00:03:07:19 – 00:03:29:21
Xander
And you talk a little bit about why that is and why this is different. And second, in the Google case, a jury found that Google had illegally tied together the App Store and billing system with an initiative internally called Project Hug, which is what’s hilarious names. Michael hugged him with lots of money. Google allegedly paid phone companies like Samsung, those game developers, to use the play store.
00:03:29:22 – 00:03:50:06
Xander
Over 80 competitors, including telling people that Samsung did not allow to put in any other stores besides the play store and Samsung going to the default installation of the race. And this is enabled them obviously to extract a 30% fee on digital purchases. And the remedy for that case remains undecided. So this was surprising for me in the context of the Apple case, if it mostly because I’m not a very good lawyer.
00:03:50:08 – 00:04:16:08
Xander
But honestly, the difference is like Apple owns and operates their internal operating system as well as the iPhone. And so it’s expected that they’re a closed ecosystem. Right. And when you get an Apple phone, you know exactly what you’re getting. Whereas in the Google case, they have a more open ecosystem incident, which at fault here is the tactics they’re using, which are into monopolistic tactics, basically say, for competition in a way that Apple is not because they’re vertically integrated.
00:04:16:10 – 00:04:23:02
Xander
So I guess said not lawyers, but that’s my best understanding. What understands so far more what do you think Quite a lot going on here.
00:04:23:04 – 00:04:40:07
Warren
Yeah. So the thing I was asking Zander about for he started recording that I’m really wondering about is like, what’s going to happen now? Like, what does this mean? So this has been over three years in the making and they have not decided what the actual punishment is going to be, right? Zander That’s still that’s still in court.
00:04:40:09 – 00:05:01:17
Warren
What’s wild is that there was different rulings for Apple and Google. I understand some of the technical reasons why, but I’m just waiting to see what the impact is. If Google has to go through some meaningful policy change that reduces those fees in some way and Apple doesn’t, what does that mean? It sets a very strange precedent for the industry.
00:05:01:17 – 00:05:14:11
Warren
If we have like one of the two ecosystems that’s held to a wildly different standard than the others, I would rather that neither of them had their rates like this high. But what do you see as like the most likely scenario that pans out from this? Zander If you had to place bets.
00:05:14:13 – 00:05:32:17
Xander
Yeah. So in my aggressively nonprofessional opinion what seems like it’s going to happen is they’re basically going to mandate probably some sort of fine but then they’re also going to mandate that they basically have to stop the entire monopolistic behaviors, which should mean that they shall alternative app stores. Right. And they have to compete on basically on their own merit.
00:05:32:19 – 00:05:51:03
Xander
So what that could do over time, if this works out as well as it could, is like basically some like Samsung could make their own store or alternative third party app stores can be easier to install and they can have lower rates, which means that basically over time that could potentially drive down the fee structure. I don’t think anyone’s going to mandate, hey, Google, you have to cut your fees right away.
00:05:51:05 – 00:06:07:04
Xander
But I think that there’s like basically market forces should allow rates without over time. I have no idea what happened to the Apple side of the equation. My guess is they’re just going to basically hold the line. And I think what the thing that’s frustrating to me is like Apple’s doing is maybe like immoral and stupid and I hate it, but I don’t think it’s illegal in the traditional sense.
00:06:07:09 – 00:06:08:20
Xander
That just drives me nuts.
00:06:08:22 – 00:06:27:10
Warren
So I’m trying to figure out there are third party stores available on Android today. So there’s a Galaxy store, you know, what is the relationship between Play Store and Galaxy Store and how would this be different in the future? Like which changes because there are some exceptions in third party app stores available. Amazon App Store was another one historically.
00:06:27:12 – 00:06:51:09
Xander
My understanding is that they’re basically allowed, but what they’ve done is under Project Hug, they have bribed the people. Other people in the ecosystem to disadvantage those third party stores. So for example, Samsung is this explicit case called out in case where they paid Samsung explicitly to only have the Samsung store and then the play store on devices installed by default.
00:06:51:11 – 00:07:08:16
Xander
And as similarly, they paid major game developers to only publish on the play store or pretty much on a specific set of stores. And this is what is traditionally seen as like it’s a competitive is using your market your money and your market force to constrain competition in order to drive up pricing, which is exactly what they’ve done.
00:07:08:18 – 00:07:15:02
Xander
And the difference in Apple is that Apple doesn’t have to do that because they’re like completely vertically integrated, which is like ridiculous.
00:07:15:02 – 00:07:19:07
Warren
But it’s almost like Google’s problem was it wasn’t monopolistic enough.
00:07:19:09 – 00:07:22:05
Xander
It’s so fucking stupid.
00:07:22:07 – 00:07:27:06
Warren
Like if they just said to built a completely closed ecosystem like Apple, they wouldn’t be punished in the same way.
00:07:27:07 – 00:07:56:10
Xander
Yeah, right. And so while, you know, I think it’s right and then the idea is like Apple had to give up market share to be vertically integrated and Google was much more broadly adopted. Yeah. And that was the play. Like the other side of the coin is like because they were open in quotes, they’ve got a much larger market share and whether they want to call it is you should listen to Ben Thompson from strategic read talk about this because he’s way smart about this and there’s a really, really good breakdown and it’s way more insightful what we’re seeing right now, you know, even versus maybe you move on the next topic.
00:07:56:12 – 00:08:18:22
Warren
No, let’s go from Google versus Epic to the SRB versus our clients immutable and their game Gods Unchained. So and Epic is a guest player in the story as well. So this is article from decrypt that we’re going to reference guys and chains which is a collectible TCG trading card game. One of the real OG Web three games.
00:08:18:22 – 00:08:47:06
Warren
It’s been around for years at this point. Earlier this year, I think in June it was launched on Epic Store and this was part of kind of the first crop of more mature, what, three games becoming available on more mainstream distribution platforms. So this was something that a lot of us in the Web three space were excited about to see, like a more friendly play between these mainstream distribution platforms and Epic Well, as of today, you can not find that guys unchained on the Epic store.
00:08:47:06 – 00:09:19:03
Warren
As of October it was removed and now there’s public info out on why. So why was it removed? It was removed because the SRB, which is the ratings board for video games labeled that contained within adults only rating, which is wild because the description of what they usually give those games to is that adults only or a rating is granted to games that may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and or graphic sexual content and nudity.
00:09:19:05 – 00:09:48:10
Warren
Great. So they are putting on par with that. The ability to trade. And so your cards in your deck with other players. So too, I’m obviously biased to someone who’s like quite bullish on what through gaming but I think this is like completely ridiculous. The justification for it was this is something that allows people to play and earn crypto assets, you know, cards that can be treated as nfts or tokens that can be sold.
00:09:48:15 – 00:10:14:14
Warren
But it’s not like you can do this stuff, you know, for better or for worse, it’s a relief to take your assets from inside some of these more mature, what, three games to like cash in your pocket? It’s not like there’s trading options inside the game. And even if there was a producer case, you brought up a good note in preparation for this, which is like, you know, for some time we’ve been totally fine as an industry with kids being able to like, use their parents credit cards and buy a limited amount of things.
00:10:14:16 – 00:10:42:15
Warren
And the crime here is that you are earning through your play or buying things that you can actually resell or trade later that do not immediately have zero value. So I know this is the kind of stuff that completely infuriates me when it comes to like getting more mainstream adoption of web through gaming. And I think it has really dumb implications for what through gaming in general, because on one hand, Epic has been pretty public of like, Hey, what three games you can publish here?
00:10:42:17 – 00:11:04:11
Warren
But on the other hand, now the SRB is saying any games with what, three elements with an object that you can acquire through playing is adults only. And then Epic has another policy that says, Oh, if you’re adults only, you cannot publish on our platform. So to restate one more time, Epic has one policy that says what? Three games are welcome here?
00:11:04:13 – 00:11:15:09
Warren
But because now they’re all categorized as adults only, it’s in complete conflict with Epic’s other policy that says no adults only games can be published on the platform. So, Zander, what do you make of this mess?
00:11:15:11 – 00:11:25:10
Xander
I hate this. I mean, I think it’s like the ECB clearly wielding its power in so aggressive, but like just malicious and belligerent.
00:11:25:10 – 00:11:27:18
Warren
Clearly, it’s not the blunt object. Right.
00:11:27:20 – 00:11:43:01
Xander
Well, but also it’s like they’re putting their thumb on the scale in a way that they shouldn’t be. So like, why does user B exist? The user B exists as an alternative to government rating. So you skim company, you opt into going to the user. B because we don’t want the government stepping in to regulate the games industry.
00:11:43:03 – 00:11:59:11
Xander
That’s smart grip. They’re acting as a government. And so now they’re saying they’re like, okay, this is a stand in for the government that we wouldn’t opt into and now that entity is using their power to put their thumb on the scale of the industry in the way that the industry developed. So it’s fricking infuriating and it’s really ridiculous.
00:11:59:13 – 00:12:14:10
Xander
And I haven’t even thought about the ECB for the longest time because they just do a good job and you never think about it. They go, it just works great. And now it’s like for the first time ever. Really? Okay, well, like is the ECB the right function for this? Do we need a regulation industry like this or do we need to have an alternative reading industry?
00:12:14:12 – 00:12:25:16
Xander
And so I think long term that is actually bad for them because they’re undercutting their own credibility. In the short term. It’s like who knows how long this is going to push out the adoption of the Web3 game ecosystem, which is just freaking annoying.
00:12:25:18 – 00:12:56:20
Warren
Right? It’s such a broad blanket statement of essentially any game economy where a player can own like an object that they can own and treat outside the game is equivalent to prolonged scenes of intense violence or graphic sexual content. So immutable is appealing this. Hopefully there is some sense that can happen here and this can get reversed. But for now, pretty frustrating for those of us working on getting more of these more mature, what, three games into the hands of regular people outside of the crypto ecosystem?
00:12:56:22 – 00:13:24:01
Xander
Yeah. Okay. Hats off well onto the new out. So next up, something that’s near and dear to our heart more and I early especially your heart is the story about Hasbro. So Hasbro is slashing nearly 20% of its workforce, 1100 people amid a slump in toy sales. This comes after 800 jobs were cut earlier this year. They’ve also sold off their movie studio, E, one for $500 million after only four years at a 75% loss.
00:13:24:01 – 00:13:44:18
Xander
Good job, Hasbro. Hasbro’s has some of the best known IP and all the traditional toys, as well as just games in general. Stuff like magic, the gathering metaphor of the Dragons, Transformers literally like the top tier of game IP brands that exist in the world. So what I looked at this for Hasbro super closely with one obvious exception, which I think one we’ll talk about in a moment.
00:13:45:00 – 00:14:06:19
Xander
But like clearly this is an extrapolation of a rising trend, which is towards the digitization of play. So this is a traditionally a physical product studio. And now over time we will see more and more of the play dollars going towards digital products, as you and I all should know. And so I think they’re fairly mismanaged. They come from a historical background and they’re continuing to convert themselves into a digital first company.
00:14:06:19 – 00:14:09:06
Xander
And I’m going to say good luck because that’s a really hard thing to do.
00:14:09:08 – 00:14:32:22
Warren
So many thoughts. So first of all, I realize I gave Hasbro too much credit because I put in the notes that your Zander that they took a loss of 75% on this movie studio. It’s actually worse than that. They bought Entertainment One or E1 studios for $4 billion in 2019 $4 billion. And then four years later, they sold it for 500 million.
00:14:33:00 – 00:14:49:20
Warren
So it’s actually that’s like they bought a shit coin, like they lost almost 90% of their value in less than four years like they should is bought some ship token or something. But, you know, I follow Hasbro and you know, I’m a huge magic nerd, as anyone knows. And I have had a lot of friends at work for Wizards of the Coast over the years.
00:14:49:20 – 00:15:12:17
Warren
And for Hasbro, there’s just like some wild mismanagement going on. They had a huge vision a few years back of becoming like a massive, like transmedia brand. And so that’s why the time they invested heavily into, you know, things like buying a movie studio and TV studio. And we’ve seen like, you know, the dungeons Dragons movie came out earlier this year that underperformed financially as have like I think most of their other film initiatives that they pursued.
00:15:12:19 – 00:15:33:17
Warren
But I think the thing that’s a real tragedy in general when this many people are losing their jobs in a difficult year for the games industry, but we don’t have the final numbers. But a ton of people lost their jobs from wizards of the coast and really, yeah, like some very prominent folks there have lost their jobs. And we don’t have like the full count of who’s left yet.
00:15:33:19 – 00:15:54:05
Warren
But I think the reason that that’s so significant is that wizards of the Coast let me find the stat. It’s something like they represent 22% of the revenue from the business, but over 70% of the profit for Hasbro. So wizards of the Coast is the golden goose within the company. And it’s like, how much more do you want from these people?
00:15:54:07 – 00:16:13:09
Warren
I understand that sometimes businesses have to make sacrifices, you know, especially this last year. But when a division of the company is overperforming that much, just from a business standpoint like you would think that they have a little more freedom to salvage like their key people. Some really good folks I know lost their jobs there this week. So pretty furious.
00:16:13:09 – 00:16:29:06
Warren
This as a company where, you know, I’ve given it a lot of my lifetime loyalty and lifetime value to see like yeah, to see the way that they’ve just kind of massacred their workforce, even the really high performing divisions is really tragic. Any other thoughts here, Senator?
00:16:29:08 – 00:16:41:03
Xander
I mean, I agree. It’s sad. I mean, it’s obviously Wizards of the Coast is like just such a gem. Is there anything that can make you not be a magic player? One, is it possible, you know, I mean, like I think that’s part of it.
00:16:41:03 – 00:16:55:07
Warren
I mean, that’s what Hasbro has going for them in a way. It’s like this is just such a epic fumble of the bag because they have such beloved IP is like with Dungeons and Dragons, Transformers Magical Gathering, Play-Doh, My Little Pony.
00:16:55:09 – 00:16:58:18
Xander
Got Peppa Pig. Don’t even know what that is, but it’s it’s big.
00:16:58:19 – 00:17:17:08
Warren
Yeah, I think it’s just, you know, it’s easy to be armchair quarterback when it comes to with these businesses are doing but the pattern that I’ve seen watching company pretty closely is it’s a lot of like quarter to quarter and year to year decisions pulling forward future profits in order to hit like short term goals. And at some point, like you just can’t keep up with that pace of growth.
00:17:17:08 – 00:17:22:16
Warren
And I think this year that came clearer and so they had to take really drastic action.
00:17:22:18 – 00:17:36:16
Xander
When magic is like crushing it, right? It’s like all time high digital sales item, high physical sales, they’re doing more releases than ever. They’re doing this secretly. I mean, that thing is such a behemoth in terms of revenue. It goes to show how mismanaged the rest of the business must be if that is getting.
00:17:36:17 – 00:18:03:07
Warren
It is so. But they’re doing you know, they’re doing a lot of things that are burning out the players like they’re releasing content. They’re trying to push both price points and frequency of releases to the breaking point with players. That’s been like a big theme in the community. And they’ve also done things to hurt local play environments, like they’ve been doing a lot more direct to consumer sales and deals directly for sales through Amazon versus their historical model of facilitating a lot of the physical sales through local game stores.
00:18:03:09 – 00:18:25:23
Warren
And so that has a long term negative effect when you remove the revenue opportunity of the game store, you remove the gathering place, you remove the thing that’s like the activation point in local growth playing key factor for your product. So that’s what I mean about like pulling forward these profits, like when they take these moves to like cut out the quote unquote gentlemen of local game stores and play areas.
00:18:26:01 – 00:18:43:09
Warren
Cool. That helps this quarter. And I see this like going to my local game store for every magic release and seeing less and less people every time while their revenue numbers come up because they’re doing less things to support like that local ecosystem. So that’s my salty magic player rants. Hopefully someone from what’s he and Hasbro is listening.
00:18:43:14 – 00:18:55:10
Warren
Not that I expect you to listen to me, but yeah, you guys have some of the best IP and best games in the world and hopefully leadership can make some better decisions and more long term thinking starting next year.
00:18:55:12 – 00:18:59:19
Xander
Speaking of long term thinking, a lack of long term thinking, let’s go to our next topic.
00:18:59:21 – 00:19:23:22
Warren
All right. Our next topic, another kind of goodbye for a lot of people is that E3? I feel like we’ve reported the story in the past date of view, but for real? For real. E3 has officially shut down now. So this is courtesy of VentureBeat. So the Entertainment Software Association has announced the end of the major gaming industry event, E3 Electronic Entertainment Expo.
00:19:24:00 – 00:19:45:17
Warren
E3 has been going for over 20 years at this point, launched in 1995, and for a lot of them, it’s run was considered like the flagship gaming event, usually taking place in a lot in Los Angeles at the Los Angeles Convention Center. And really we saw the pain start for E3 in COVID. I think that was the first time we reported on E3 being dead.
00:19:45:19 – 00:20:05:15
Warren
It tried to come back. It was canceled in 2020. It came back in 2021 for a smaller online only event. And it’s tried to do a full comeback for next year, but there just wasn’t enough momentum and interest. So it’s officially offline for the foreseeable future. Maybe we’re going to see E3 come back in some other form another day, but I think that’s it for now.
00:20:05:17 – 00:20:12:15
Warren
Zander Did you ever go to E3? What are your thoughts about its role in the industry and why it’s disappearing?
00:20:12:17 – 00:20:29:11
Xander
It’s a little before my time. I’ve never been to it, but I do remember as a kid, yeah, basically I was a teenager when I would watch like stuff on the internet and you’d always see the E3 trailer so that was like a huge beat where all the game major studio would go and get on the trailers that have the giant venues, and they’d be competing on both size and stuff like that.
00:20:29:13 – 00:20:48:16
Xander
And it seems like what’s happened is basically all the major players decided, you know, instead of paying for a middleman, they just do their own conferences. And a lot of them have obviously not the same scale, but they want to control their own distribution. So you’ve never been an event based marketing business. So our tactics for selling games are a little different than the E3 tactic of selling games.
00:20:48:18 – 00:20:55:14
Xander
So I think it’s sad in that it’s hard to see anything get open and not have a particularly strong opinions here. I think this is what it is. Yeah.
00:20:55:15 – 00:21:13:06
Warren
When I think about the role of E3 and where that is now, I see kind of like a bifurcated split. Like where do those big announcements come now in the industry? And it’s kind of fresh in mind because we just had the Game Awards. So that’s, I think, our largest online. I mean, it’s Earl and Matt, but it’s not open to the general public.
00:21:13:12 – 00:21:44:23
Warren
So we see a lot of big announcements there. And then GDC, I think GDC has really evolved and that’s where we see a lot of the biggest news, the biggest announcements. It is that merger of both an industry show and a fan show. I think E3 tried to be, but it’s more inclusive and indicative of where gaming is because I think E3 has always had a niche as like this is the place for like console and PC games, whereas GDC is a more broad of this is the games industry, this is wherever the games industry is going.
00:21:44:23 – 00:22:08:12
Warren
When there’s trends around mobile, GDC has updated and reflected that when there’s trends around what three or VR, you go that year and GDC reflects that. But I feel like almost that E3 was stuck from a moment in time of like the glory years of console games, journalism and print media and is more from that nostalgic period rather than the current state of gaming as it evolves.
00:22:08:14 – 00:22:23:10
Xander
Yeah, I think that’s I think that’s a fair assumption. And I think just sort of in the context of thinking about sort of announcement, I mean, last week we covered GTA six, how they announced their trailer. Well, they’re free now as a trailer and they just dropped a trailer on YouTube and got 110 million people in a day.
00:22:23:12 – 00:22:39:12
Xander
I think that kind of like articulates the issue with like why a huge overhead operation works less now than it used to, is because if you have fans and direct to consumer channels, you don’t need the middleman in the way they used to. Which is also sad because we’re spending time in person, but it just is. But it is cool.
00:22:39:14 – 00:22:41:18
Warren
I think that’s all that’s set the news. Yeah.
00:22:41:20 – 00:22:44:11
Xander
That’s it for this week one Check us out.
00:22:44:13 – 00:23:13:16
Warren
Also, Garcelle, as usual, the news this week was brought to you by our team here at Uptick. In Uptick, we do things for games to help them grow and get more players. So that is a pretty broad scope of work. We produce creatives, we run the performance marketing campaigns. If you’ve got a Web three game, we do that with three native marketing tactics and then we build some really awesome software that gives all the games that we work on a very unfair edge over the competition that is, you know, competing for the same users.
00:23:13:18 – 00:23:25:03
Warren
So if you’re trying to grow a game and need help at any stage, there’s almost certainly some way that we can help you Feel free to reach out to us through our website. That’s U-P-P-T-I-C dot com.
Xander
Talk soon.